In-depth discussion regarding PL on CD

An email chain began with me, Zarko, Marlan and Travis discussing the move of PL to all-CD. The entirety of those emails is reprinted here so you can see the discussion, and hopefully, throw your own 2 cents in.

To answer your questions:

When did the APA get to be so expensive?

It’s mostly the color covers, yeah. But the problem is that it’s so hard to get anyone to help with cost… even if we went to black and white, even if we went to the “Catcher and the Rye” cover (PL # 17 humor there for ya, ha-HA!), we’ve still got a lot of paper we’re going through. That still costs money. So, we could go back to b&w (this would KILL Copy Jesus) and our expenses would drop – but the same problem remains, I’ve got a CopyCo bill with little to no help.

Or the uploading to Copy Jesus's work's FTP site?

No, that continues to be free.

I could live without the color covers, or anything else in color for that matter if it's going to cost a stack of bills.

I could, too, but that’s a quick fix that will lead to the same result.

If people aren't paying for uploading and printing their zines then they need to be cut out or go back to the old ways, which worked just fine for a long time.

I agree. My goal is to have a healthy APA. I’ll take the blame for being too hesitant of cutting members, and in letting the finances get out of order. It’s something we need to look at soon, the roster. I’d like to propose that if you haven’t contributed in, a year(?) and you haven’t contributed money, then we cut these people from the roster. It’s a housekeeping issue. I’ve been trying to keep everyone happy, and I’ve also lacked the organization to see who contributed what last, but yeah… here in an issue or two, I’d like to get serious about the APA being a members-only publication. If you don’t make some form of contribution, then we stop mailing you the APA. This is common sense, I know, but like I said, in my mind, I’m always hopeful that that member who hasn’t contributed in so long is going to see issue 38 and be like, “I’ve got to get writing!” I’m too quixotic, obviously, need to be more cutthroat when it comes to the management of the APA. And yeah, another reason our funds are so screwey is because we produce 25 copies for, what, 12 regular contributors? Blame me for all of this, I’ve totally mismanaged this aspect of the APA.

If someone's paying for it then it should be the writer paying for it. This thing isn't free.

But it has been free, for a long time, for many of our members.

Are the other APAs going through the same thing?

I haven’t communicated with another APA in years (honest, baby…) I can’t answer that question.

And Travis brings up a good point about everyone being able to read their zines on their computers. When we do this, we're going to have to make sure that everyone is using the same program for their zines so they're compatible to everyone. I do mine in Publisher (and an old version, at that) and not everyone has that (nor should they). Travis does his in Office and I don't think I ever even installed that on my computer. Baxter has a Mac; I think Arnett does, too. I would suggest everyone saving in Word but even that's doubtful that everyone has it. It is important we figure this out.

No worries on this. Copy J could give you the particulars, but the short of it is: yeah, the CD format will accept your publisher, word, wordpad, mac, whatever program. Because when you open your CD (try it on your computer to see what I’m talking about) it simply opens as an Acrobat file. So, I guess you need Acrobat, which is free, right? But Copy J takes all the files that are uploaded, turns them into PDFs (how? I don’t know, I don’t look behind the curtain to see the almighty Oz, nor do I want to) and =presto= he saves them in order of the TOC on the CD.

The problem I have with this is I like to draw in my zines… and now I’ll have to scan that art, or something, to get it in the digital version of the zine. So there is one technical problem I can tell you I have. If you hand write your zines (Byron Benedyk, anyone?) then you would need to either snail mail or scan and email the pages to Copy J, because he does need some type of digital file to put it on the disc.

In any case, it's not up to a vote and, when you get down to it, we might have our little "guest Editor-in-Chiefs" but when it comes down to it, Seth is in charge and what he says goes; I trust his leadership in any case.

Thanks. And I’ve got the best interest of the APA in mind here, I really do. Let us see where this goes… who knows where we find ourselves this time in 2009. I’ll tell you where I DON’T see us: in a place where members willingly send in money for APA dues… how long have we been asking for money for paying the CopyCo bill? You know I’ve been harping about it for at least 50 days… you can go back to Zarko’s pleas and say it’s been 6, 7, 8 months. And money is just not coming in.

And there's no sense in letting the old APA's ways bleed us out. Hey, it'll be an adventure and everyone needs a different way to do things every once in a while. Let's go, see what happens. (Unfortunately, this is going to be a fundamental change in my own zine and the plans I had for this issue that I'm EiC for but I'll sort it out.)

I know, Mar, and I’m sorry to do this on your watch. I’m hopeful you’ll roll with it, and make the best of it, and that seems like what you’re willing to do, by reading this here. It’s important to me that you embrace this change, because you’re one of our most important members (I’m not just saying that because it was your birthday recently). I’m not trying to run anyone off – that’s been my M.O. to a fault, you know that. I worry about what you, Travis, Zarko think, because I know that you guys are all like me – you prefer a printed magazine over a CD.

Hey, maybe you can hit an early homerun with this new format, current EIC. I don’t know, there’s this ‘best of’ CD that comes out every year, it’s this member’s CD he sends out… maybe that could be in the ‘zine now? How, I don’t know. Copy J tells me it works, though. Something to think about.

So it's going to happen for this current issue? That's rather abrupt.

It is, isn’t it? The impetus for this was that Copy J took the initiative and demanded digital versions of everyone’s zine for issue 38, and then he just made it and brought it over for us to look at. There’s me, Bart, Arnett and Copy J, all hunched over my computer, checking out this new format for PL. And he’s telling me, “This is 1/8th the cost, 1/20th the time – I did the math.” And it’s right there, man, the answer. I took a deep breath and said, “this is the new format.”

When Bell invented the telephone, he didn’t say, ‘You know, I’m gonna keep yelling out the window to my neighbor, because that’s the way I’ve always reached him.’ There’s a new technology here that seems like it’s full service, ready to go… it’s cheaper, faster, in color, more environmental… let’s try it.

I won't print mine out, though. Sure, we have that option now if we're so set on reading the thing in print but, man, that's a lot to print and my computer isn't set up to be a copy service.

I would suggest, if you wanted a printed version, you take it to Kinko’s, CopyCo, whatever copy place you have, and ask them to print/bind it. I imagine it’d be inexpensive, maybe $4, $5. That’s a guess. I wouldn’t suggest printing it on your home printer either.

But if you’re already declaring that you won’t be printing yours off, I think you’re more willing to let go of the printed version than you let on…

From Mar:
I'm re-copying the meat of the discussion we've had about the APA-to-disc so far. This could be for ease of use in case we want to include other people in this (and I would have sent it to everyone else in the PL membership but I wanted to make sure I had your permission to reprint what you've said in this circle).

My comments follow, at the end.Subj: RE: Pulp Legacy Date: 1/11/2008 12:10:38 PM Pacific Standard Time From: sjones@gcsaa.org To: theamazingsweeten@hotmail.com, mar93@aol.com, zaricr@mlc.mb.ca, zaric@mts.net

From Seth:
Sorry to exclude you guys, but… the conversation’s already been had. I had it with myself. I’m flipping the switch. We’re all-CD with the next issue. I know some people will be disappointed… heck, I’m one of them! But here are my choices:

Continue to print the APA, where the costs will continue to come out of me and Copy J’s pocket Make the APA all-CD, so cost is reduced to 1/8th and time commitment is reduced to 1/20th

We just gotta rip it off like a band-aid. And who knows, this whole thing may fall apart miserably, and we’re back to printing in a few months. But for now, I need to give this a try. I don’t want to come off like a dictator here. But debating, voting, etc., isn’t going to help the $200 CopyCo bill. This will. So this is what I’m doing.

If you really love the printed PL… go ahead and print it. That’s an option. It’s just that you now have to print your own. I don’t think I’m taking away anything, because PL still can be printed. But I am putting a stop to the mounting copy/postage bills.

I’ll reproduce this on the Pulp Legacy blog (www.pulplegacy.blogspot.com) , so everyone can see what we’re talking about here.

From Zaric:
And so it is. Seth's right about the money stuff. I don't know how many e-mails I sent out for people to pay up. Some are great, but a sizable portion haven't anted up. Who knows? Let's see what happens. It will make production a lot easier and open things up to videos and music to become more of a multimedia thing.

What I like: - Easier to create a 'zine. Plus it allows me to submit right on the deadline instead of a month out.- Cheaper. I won't miss paying the postage for 25-30 'zines.

What I don't like: - The format. I prefer paper over monitor. (It's back to Wizard when I have to take a crap.)- I read everything cover to cover. I suspect not everyone does.
Will they now with a more inconvenient (from the end user perspective) format? Arden recently received a Spider-Man CR-ROM with all 500 issues on it and I've hardly looked at it. If he received 500 comics, I'd have annexed them by now. (This point is debatable because I know some people read everything off a screen.)

But let's give it a go. BTW, here was what I wrote as an MC to CJ for his most recent 'zine:

I really liked the CD of Pulp Legacy. I’m a little torn as to the direction of our fine APA. Part of me wants to move ahead and get with the new technology … but part of me is rooted in the past. I read your ‘zine (and will most likely read everyone else’s) in the paper form. It’s just more convenient for me. I can look at it anywhere I want: on the couch, in my office, at work, on the can, on the bus, etc. The CD limits where I can view it. I don’t have a laptop and am not a big fan of reading continuously from the computer screen. I do, however, agree that from a production standpoint, all-electronic would be easier and less expensive. I would not miss mailing out 30 copies of my ‘zine every two months or whatever. Also, the colour pictures are a nice touch. Now that I think about it, I could insert pictures and images at a high resolution. Presently I have to decrease the photo size so I’m not working with a data pig. But the paper form … there’s something about print that trump electronic. Perhaps a sense of permanence (although I know that’s not true)? So I’m torn. Maybe I’m old fashioned. Kind of like the vinyl people when CDs first came out (although I was always pro-CD).

From Travis:
I personally HATE the idea of going completely with the CD format. If we're going to go all digital, why don't we just get a website and post stuff, a la Comic Book Resources?

With that said, I understand what Seth is saying. He's been carrying a lot of us for a long time now, far longer than I would have, both in patience and finances. So, yeah, I say make the switch. In a perfect world, cheaper reproduction techniques will come along and we'll all go back to having reading material on the shitter. And as Seth brought up, it could all come crashing down in a giant heap.

But before I dip my toe in the pool of digital 'zining, I have a few...things to say (sorry, the metaphor well ran dry) 1. I know that we switched up how we did some things after Seth had a conversation with some other APA groups. Have we continued dialogue with them to see how they are holding up under the financial stress? Do they have some good ideas that we are not looking into? 2. Will everyone's stuff on CD be readable? F'r instance, I use office 07 to write my 'zine. Is the format changed when it gets uploaded or burned or whatever so that everyone else can read it too? What if Mar is using some nifty new desktop publisher to create Waydown? Can I read his 'zine if I don't have that program? I'm just worried that someone's contribution will be reduced to an error message of "cannot read file".

From Mar:
Before I get into the details of debating the topic (oh, and you know I will), here's an e-mail I sent Jones a few weeks ago about this very topic:

I'll say right now that I don't like the idea of having the APA on a disc to look at on the computer screen. For a number of reasons, one of the most prominent being that I like looking at the APA in print and that's the way I think it always should be; having it on the computer is just a fundamental change in the APA experience. However, I realize the reality of the situation and if the costs to make the thing are over $200, like I think you said it was for the newest issue, then certainly something has to change. And I can live with it, it's just a change to get used to and it's a lot better than abandoning the thing altogether. I can't imagine any other member putting up such a fit that we'll keep going with the printed version but I'm looking forward to the debate. So, just to be clear: I don't like the idea of the change but I know it's the best thing to do and, besides my offering my own opinions about it, I won't stand in the way of the APA's progress.

From Trav:
You know, I think that, barring a couple of members, Marlan says it for everyone. The majority of us don't want to go digital, the majority don't want to lose the print format. But the majority of us don't want to lose Pulp Legacy either.

From Mar:
So it's going to happen for this current issue? That's rather abrupt. I thought we might have another issue to get used to the idea, to ease into it, to make a transition, but I reckon that's what the last issue was, even if we didn't know it (and I'll even take a look at that disc one of these days). But there's no sense in putting it off for longer and racking up another $200 copy bill. I like the band-aid analogy. Might as well jump right into it.

While I don't "HATE" the idea of going to disc with the APA, like I've said, I think its purest form is in print. I've thought of it like collecting vinyl records: newer ways to collect and listen to your music are easier, cheaper, and more convenient but there's a certain feel to vinyl (one that I'm unfamiliar with but I think you know what I'm talking about). Or like video games: sure, the newer ones might be better in their way but there's a certain charm to the old Atari 2600 games. It's like respecting something antiquated (though "antiquated" doesn't have to mean it's no longer useful because it's old-fashioned).

There's also something to be said for tradition and doing it the way we've always done it but if it's really such a pain, then it is time to change. (And as I was reading through the e-mails I noticed that Zaric made the same analogy to vinyl that I did but I already typed all this out so I'll leave it as is.)I won't print mine out, though. Sure, we have that option now if we're so set on reading the thing in print but, man, that's a lot to print and my computer isn't set up to be a copy service. Besides, it still wouldn't be the same. You wouldn't have the missing or doubled issues or the spontaneous extras that are thrown into the envelope or the joy of being able to skip over a chunk of it because it's your own long-winded zine. And really, if the future of comics is having comics online, on your computer screen, will anyone really print them out just to read them like they used to? I really doubt it. That's just a lot more work. And it's still not the same.

Some questions, though:

When did the APA get to be so expensive? I remember the issues used to be a few bucks and that was mostly for postage. Is it the color covers that killed us? Or the uploading to Copy Jesus's work's FTP site? "Uncle" pays for the postage, so it's not that. (Note: Jones edit on this sentence.) I could live without the color covers, or anything else in color for that matter if it's going to cost a stack of bills. And the convenience of uploading my zine is a wonderful thing and I'm more than happy to pay for it and I've assumed that I've been charged for it and it's come out of the dues that I've paid. If people aren't paying for uploading and printing their zines then they need to be cut out or go back to the old ways, which worked just fine for a long time. If someone's paying for it then it should be the writer paying for it. This thing isn't free. Of course, trying to figure out ways to save the APA's finances might be a little late by now but I'm still interested in what happened.

Are the other APAs going through the same thing? Have they already hit on the idea to put their issues on disc or on a website? I'm sure this discussion started the day after it became so convenient to put things online, why anyone would bother with printing the APA? I'm not involved with any other APAs anymore and I don't talk to many outside of PL but are you guys in touch with any of the others, like Legends? Is Legends even still around?

And Travis brings up a good point about everyone being able to read their zines on their computers. When we do this, we're going to have to make sure that everyone is using the same program for their zines so they're compatible to everyone. I do mine in Publisher (and an old version, at that) and not everyone has that (nor should they). Travis does his in Office and I don't think I ever even installed that on my computer. Baxter has a Mac; I think Arnett does, too. I would suggest everyone saving in Word but even that's doubtful that everyone has it. It is important we figure this out.

In any case, it's not up to a vote and, when you get down to it, we might have our little "guest Editor-in-Chiefs" but when it comes down to it, Seth is in charge and what he says goes; I trust his leadership in any case. And there's no sense in letting the old APA's ways bleed us out. Hey, it'll be an adventure and everyone needs a different way to do things every once in a while. Let's go, see what happens. (Unfortunately, this is going to be a fundamental change in my own zine and the plans I had for this issue that I'm EiC for but I'll sort it out.)