I was just flipping through the top 25 rivalries in comics (on CBR), and I see that Batman Vs. Joker took top honor. I'm OK with that (I was happy to see Cap Vs. Red Skull in the top 10, and Spidey Vs. Goblin in the top 5).
But I'm sick of people trying to say this is "chaos versus order." I'm no expert on Batman, but I have been reading his comics for years, and it seems to be that there isn't a whole lot of "order" in Batman's life. But everyone has seen the most recent Batman movie, and suddenly, that's the explanation we're giving on why this is a feud.
It's more like: Joker wants to kill Gothamites, versus Batman wants to protect Gotham. Batman wants to ensure that what happened to him doesn't happen to anyone else... it drives him so much that he wears a bat-suit, invests millions of dollars into an alter-ego, giving up any semblance of a normal life. Where's the "order" in that?
Your thoughts are welcomed.
Here's my top rivalries, off the top of my head:
1. Cap Vs. Red Skull
2. Spidey Vs. Goblin
3. FF Vs. Doom
4. Batman Vs. Joker
5. Silver Surfer Vs. Galactus
6. Spidey Vs. Venom
7. Cap Vs. Hydra
8. Thing Vs. Hulk
9. Green Lantern Vs. Sinestro
10. Thor Vs. Loki
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5 comments:
Ra's al Ghul represents order more than Batman does in this canon. Joker represents chaos more than anything else, (and always has though unevenly and often incompletely) but Joker won't go after Ra's because he can't, he wouldn't know how to be effective v. that sort of organization. If Joker ever put enough thought to take on Ra's he would truly be dangerous.
My interpretation of why Joker is obsessed with Bats is that he realizes that Bats is every bit the loony that Joker is. They've both invested (albeit in different ways) heavily in their 'true face' but Joker's chaotic bent can really only match up with Batman's logic. (Not Bruce, Bruce isn't real and I think everyone will accept that, though I think a convincing case could be made and might be in the next film. Should be made in the comics, too.)
I think people are using Christopher Nolan's rationale (chaos v. order) because they don't really understand the difference between logical and orderly. (The Dark Knight film could also be viewed as nature v. science, but I didn't see that being discussed at all because the Joker as a representation of Nature (i.e. a 'force of nature') would just be too disconcerting for the general population.
Batman's parents are murdered before his eyes and he swears vengeance on a nebulous 'they'(whether you believe it was Joe Chill or not). He's every bit as crazy as Joker, but from a logical standpoint rather than an 'orderly' one because Batman's logic is skewed. It's logical because it makes sense that one would feel that way, however the logic breaks down when one refuses to leave behind childish things as 'vengeance'. Healthy, sane people don't dress up in costumes to fight crime. You need a face to be effective, which was the other theme of TDK.
To bottom line it: there are more interesting ways to look at Batman v. Joker than order v. chaos. You just have to be open to it.
Now I suppose I should check out that article on CBR.
I don't agree with the Spidey vs. Vemon one. There's just not that much history there. I know others will disagree, but I think the Spidey/Venom thing has been overplayed. If anything, I got more out of Spidey vs. Doc Ock or even Spidey vs. JJJ.
How about these ones:
Daredevil vs. Kingpin
Reed Richards vs. Namor
Wolverine vs. Sabertooth
X-Men vs. Magneto
Iron Man vs. Booze
Princess Zarda (Supreme Power) vs. clothing
Arnett pretty much summed up the Batman deal. I could add a little more, but why make a nerdy conversation even nerdier?
WOW.
I know that everyone has their personal faves (mine being the said Batman vs. Joker, but I WAS Batman until I turned 13 and wanted to bone Batgirl. But I digress)
If we're going to make a list, there are some important ones you left out. I'd have to include (Not in any particular order)
Superman vs. Lex Luthor
Justice League vs. Legion of Doom
G.I. Joe vs. Cobra
Autobots vs. Decepticons
Betty vs. Veronica
Micronauts vs. Baron Karza
Hulk vs. Bruce Banner
I missed a few as well, maybe it's a future PL theme?
re: Jason's comments -- I agree with most of what you're saying here, but my main point is still valid -- Batman as "order" is a misfire, for people who like their Batman spoon-fed to them by Nolan. Also, I think the best breakdown is still, Joker wants to kill Gothamites/Batman wants to protect Gotham. The opposite of a scary clown isn't a scary bat... these are not ying/yang characters. They don't "complete" each other. If Batman finally stopped Joker, Batman wouldn't retire... he'd still protect Gotham.
Re: Zarko's comments -- I'll defend Spidey/Venom because there is a lot of history there, just as much history as the Wolvie/Sabertooth rivalry. The alien symbiote first came around during Secret Wars (1984), Sabretooth, the character, has been around since 1977 (which isn't a huge discrepancy) and their feud wasn't really a huge deal until the "Mutant Massacre" or "Inferno" time, mid/late 80s.
Spidey/Venom has been an ongoing thing for a reader like me since I first picked up a Spidey comic. The McFarlane ASP cover (312? 317?) with Venom ripping at Spidey will always be a favorite, that was right when I was really getting into comics. For someone my age, we were presented with more Spidey v. Venom than we were Spidey v. Goblin (Green or Hob). Even Venom offspring, like Carnage, have been a big deal to the newer Spidey readers. And by newer, I mean, 20-year-reader or less. (But I also agree with you that Venom is in many ways 'overplayed.' Note I rank Spidey/Goblin over Spidey/Venom... I prefer that match-up.)
Re: Brad's comments -- my list was just my personal list. If I were doing what I would consider the great rivalries of comics, then yeah, I'd include Supes/Luthor. For me personally, there is no Superman on my list at all... the only rival for Superman for me would maybe be Batman. But Superman just doesn't interest me enough to warrant putting him on my list.
I did, however, almost put G.I. Joe/Cobra on my list, because that was a big one for me for a long time, when I was a lot younger.
Seth,
I had meant to say that I agree with you and didn't, sorry. You're right, Batman will never retire. He'll die with his boots on just like the Earth-2 Batman did.
And I know that Superman doesn't really interest you, but in the pantheon of comic book gods he can't be discounted. He's more yin to Batman's yang than the Joker is. Supes represents 'order' more than Batman does, too. He's also far more global than Bats who, as you point out, is really only concerned with Gotham. I don't think that dynamic has been really explored or at least not to my knowledge. I'd be interested to read that.
Superman is truth, justice and the American way (even though they don't say that any more). Batman is much more focused.
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